Philip Hesketh

If I’m not mistaken this is the rose garden that you mentioned when we first met – can you tell me a little bit about it. Well, we created this two years ago and we’re looking to create another one this autumn. Hopefully, that will be with the help of a wonderful garden designer called Jo Thompson. She’s won something like 4 Gold Medals at the Chelsea Flower Show, so that’s very exciting. That new garden will form part of the plan to use these spaces for health and wellbeing. So, this is cathedral land? If you look on old Ordinance Survey Maps, this area has the grand name of the Dean’s Pleasure Gardens. Over there is the Old Deanery, where Rochester’s Deans would have lived up until 1960. These were the surrounding gardens. Wow, the Old Deanery looks spectacular. It’s pretty good, isn’t it? A more modest Deanery, where I live, was built in 1959 and this building has been used for a range of things ever since. We still own it and are just about to get the building back. When that has been completed, we hope to transform part of it into a health and wellbeing centre, which will include the gardens. When I first arrived here, I spent time learning about the place and one of the things that I discovered was that a famous dean, called Dean Reynolds Hole, once lived here. Believe it or not, he was responsible for popularising the rose in Victorian Britain – he was known as the Rose King by Alfred Lord Tennyson. He created remarkable gardens here which featured over a hundred different varieties of roses that he had cultivated. With the help of volunteers, we created this rose garden in his memory.

And moving on slightly, we have recently planted these vines because there is a history of them being grown here in the early monastic period. We have had some great advice and help from Simpsons and recently the team at Balfour Winery and are hoping to produce a bit more wine this year than we have done previously. And if you’re successful, is the vision to then sell that? Why not? We already have our own gin, called 604 (date of the first Cathedral), that was made for us by the Copper Rivet Distillery at Chatham’s Dockyard and we also sell our own honey. We’d like to get a small holding in this area, so we’re gradually reclaiming more of the land which had become completely overgrown. That will then allow us to grow additional plants that are relevant to the location, and also provide a space for people to enjoy and work in. So, will members of the public be able to help you in the gardens as well? That’s the plan, we are currently working on the installation of toilet and washing facilities, which will then allow us to progress that project further. We opened up the gardens to the public this summer, when the roses were in bloom. That is probably the first time they have ever been opened since the Cathedral took control of the land in 1087. The only other time would have been during the World Wars, when the land was used for growing produce.

Graham, who’s the Head Gardener here, and I spent most of our afternoons clearing this area during Covid. It was something that we could do because we were out in the open and could keep safely distanced from each other. Since then, we have established a great group of volunteers and invited some people to help us, such as special educational needs schools and people who suffer from mental health issues, and we have also undertaken a small project with some veterans. It’s at an early stage but we are beginning to see how the program could develop. Your vision for the Cathedral seems to include a wide range of projects that you would like to bring to fruition. My problem is that I have too many ideas, so I really need people around me to let me know if something I suggest is bonkers or to say, well that could be possible. I’ve come to see over the years that I’m quite good at finding solutions, being able to think that there must be a way around a problem or seeing an opportunity. Next year, I will have been at the cathedral for 20 years, but I haven’t been Dean all of that time. I was here as Canon Pastor when I first arrived and I had ideas then about what could be done with areas like the orchard, but there were always other things going on and obviously somebody else was steering the ship at that time. I lived in a house which overlooked the orchard then and actually used to keep some pigs there because no one was using it, but I kept thinking it had such potential.

I became Dean in 2016 and was thinking about why people choose to come to Rochester Cathedral, what it was that drew them here and how we could increase those numbers. There are some fantastic things here that people are unaware of, such as the Textus Roffensis. It’s the oldest copy of English law, so it’s an incredibly important document that we’re now promoting. I may not be here in 50 years time, but hopefully people will then know that it is here and will want to come and see it. We have already mentioned Dean Reynolds Hole, the Rose King. An amazing person and really important. I went to talk to the World Federation of Rose Societies last year and they loved chatting about the Dean and were really interested in what I was doing here. It made me realise that there was another reason you would choose to visit the Cathedral, because of these fantastic gardens and their history.

So, is this creative thinking about how to promote the Cathedral and engage with the wider community, the usual role of a Dean? What actually is a Dean’s role? Well, that’s a very good question. Historically, that wouldn’t have been the case and some of the experimental things we do now are considered very unusual, although since we started those, a lot of other cathedrals have been doing similar things. There is a lot of controversy around that. People ask if that is what we should be doing but I’m always very clear about it, otherwise I wouldn’t do it. The nave is a public space and always has been. Like many organisations, cathedrals need to reinvent themselves but we must still hold true to our key values. It’s a place of prayer and worship and it’s my responsibility to ensure it is kept as a dignified place and I think I do that. Of course, we make mistakes, but that’s life, you take risks. In hindsight, do you think some of the things that you have tried may have been a mistake? Oh yeah, which one do you want to talk about?! I guess one of the projects that got the most air time was the adventure in the nave. Yes, but that certainly isn’t one that I think was a mistake because we thought about it theologically and were very clear about our message. I think it just hit at a time when there wasn’t much else happening, so it just went global. I’ll never be interviewed by the likes of NBC, The Washington Post or The New York Times again. It just seemed to hit a note but a lot of people didn’t do their research before they criticised it. Inevitably, some people think you shouldn’t do that kind of thing and they’d rather have the nave as an empty space with nobody in it, but I think that’s not why it was built. We were accused of cheap commercialism and it being a money-making exercise, but the whole thing was free for visitors. It was sponsored by The Rochester Bridge Trust, who added an educational aspect because they were trying hard to engage with young people, particularly girls, about the lack of young people going into engineering. So, they put on activities and were talking to the young visitors there, The Royal Engineers were there of course and we had various charities and groups around the space, all promoting a message of bridge building in communities and conflict resolution. Every day we have prayers here when we invite visitors to pause for a minute whilst we say the Lord’s Prayer, and to think about things that are happening around the World. Crucially, when we talk about retaining appropriate levels of dignity, during that event, everybody stopped and some also joined in the Lord’s Prayer.

Afterwards, some people told us that they hadn’t said that for years or that they didn’t know it, so conversations developed from that. People told us that they had lived nearby all of their lives but didn’t know that they could come into the Cathedral or if it was a place for people like them but they have since come back repeatedly. People tell us that they have never been in such a friendly place, they say there’s a feeling in it, which is wonderful because we’ve worked hard at engendering that, but what we should remember is that we’re now four, if not five, generations in of people who may not have had any contact with institutional religion. That’s not their fault, that’s just how it is. There was a famous Jewish philosopher called Martin Buber who once said that there was nothing more apt than religion to obscure the face of God and I think that’s the negative side of religion that we have to work against. In an age with so many distractions and endless information, it is very easy to be cynical about the whole premise of religion. Well, you don’t have to go very far to start questioning these things, do you. You just need to turn on your television. And quite honestly, why would you engage when you see so much of the negative side of life? How do you counter that? By engaging with people, being open and having conversations, but they have to be in the room in order for you to have that conversation with them and that is one of the main reasons that we have the events in the nave. If you invite people in, make them feel welcome and they’re enjoying themselves, then other things happen in a human way. That’s what I love about this job, I spend a lot of time engaging with people who don’t usually go to a church or a cathedral, or they only come here because of an historic link. For example, this Sunday we have the annual service for the Royal Engineers. Most of the memorials and windows here are dedicated to the Royal Engineers at Rochester. It is their spiritual home, their founding father is Gundulf who was known as the ‘Builder Bishop’ and built the Norman Cathedral and Castle. That relationship is hugely important to me and I spend a lot of time ensuring that we are in touch, that I am available to them and offering hospitality and friendship. That side of the job, where people come here for those reasons, or I’m going out to engage with them, is such a privilege. In those situations, when you can explain why it is that you do what you do, why you believe what you believe and that there’s no one way of believing, is just fantastic.

I'll never be interviewed by the likes of NBC, The Washington Post or The New York Times again.

I’m still grappling with my relationship with religion. I’m always open to discussing it but often avoid that because I usually end up more confused than I was before I started! I think part of the difficulty is that religion very often comes across about don’ts, about saying no, rather than saying yes. You’re right and from my perspective, one of the most enjoyable aspects of having a religious outlook is surely saying yes to people? It’s about saying yes to life, and acknowledging that we don’t have to have all the answers. I certainly don’t have all the answers. Have you spent your life looking for those answers? No, I’ve spent my whole life asking questions. That’s how I’d put it. It’s asking the questions and not being afraid to ask them. That’s what I believe.

I deliberately don’t do a lot of research prior to these conversations, so that they’re genuinely fresh, but I did notice that you had your own Wikipedia page – that’s pretty impressive. Have I?! Don’t tell me that you didn’t know about that. I better have a look. It’s all lies! Wow – I’ve got a Wikipedia page! As you can tell, I’m not very tech savvy. Well, according to your Wikipedia page, you were born in Lancashire. Yes, I come from a long line of Scousers, going back to 17 something. I’ve got as far back as a baker who lived in a Scottish village, who was obviously looking for work so made his way south across the border. My father sadly died when he was only 35. Can you remember him? No, but I think was only 2 at the time. My mum then remarried her first cousin and that side of the family were from the Isle of Man, so that is where I ended up and went to school, at St. Ninians. Today is actually the feast day of St. Ninian, which is a strange coincidence – I didn’t realise that until prayers this morning. The Isle of Man was a great place for me to grow up. I was out all day and spent a lot of time in the country or on the beach. It wasn’t a churchy kind of family at all. So, when did that thought first enter your head? Well, I had a pretty difficult upbringing and left home when I was 15 but there was a lovely lady who ran the Save the Children Fund at my school. In those days, like a lot of people, we used to collect stamps to give to that Charity and she used to manage that at the school, so I got talking to her and one day she asked if I had read a book that she was holding – it was The Four Gospels. I hadn’t, so I went away and read it and when I saw her next, told her that I finished it. She was obviously very happy about that because she said that she would take me for lunch, as a kind of reward. I thought, well that’s not bad – I’ll read them again! So I did. I was obviously wanting to please people at that stage of my life. How old were you then? I would have been 10 or 11. I think I was trying to find my place in the world but I was troubled. There’s no doubt about it, I was very troubled. But when I read the book the second time, there were places that I thought didn’t square, it contradicted itself. So, my journey with religion started with questions – I kept going back to this lady and quizzing her about it, and some of her answers were helpful, but others didn’t really satisfy me. So, my interest grew out of a real intellectual curiosity, which at some point moved into an emotional engagement as well.

I have to say, at that time when I left home and was at a bit of a loss, the love and compassion shown by some of the people from my local Methodist Church, who knew about my circumstances, carried me – they really looked out for me and took care of me. Without that care, do you think you could have taken a different path? Oh, quite possibly, but thankfully they were there for me and when a new minister and his wife moved into the chapel, they suggested that I return to school to take my A levels. I obviously had nowhere to live but they invited me to stay with them in the Manse whilst I was studying. So, that was it, I was away, I had the next step to take. I didn’t know where that next step was going to lead me but I knew it was to go to university. I wasn’t very clued up then – halfway through my first university term, I realised that I was on a different course to the one that I thought I was on, but I didn’t care! I thought I was doing the BA course but they told me that I was actually on the BD course but I thought, well it doesn’t matter really.

Looking back at your childhood, who do you now relate to as being your parents, from an emotional angle? I occasionally keep in touch with the minister, but often refer back to the gospels when Jesus is told that his mother and brothers are looking for him and he responds by asking, who is my mother and who are my brothers – whoever does the will of God is my mother and my brothers. I have always felt that is true and see that as being part of the function of the Church, to be an extended family – it saved me. And how do you think your childhood has affected you as a parent? It’s made me conscious that I wanted to be different, but sometimes the record gets replayed and you just don’t realise it. I think with my own family, I just wanted to make sure that I was there for them, but at times that was difficult because the Church can be all consuming. I have also tried to be honest and open with them because I saw so many mistakes during my childhood, but that’s life, we all make mistakes. I felt that I wanted to be able to say sorry to my children when needed, if I was playing some kind of record from somewhere else that didn’t belong. As parents, you naturally want to think that you’re making the right decisions in the way you raise your children and those usually stem from your own childhood, but sometimes those decisions are questioned and you wonder if you have actually done things the right way? I was really taken by this once when a really lovely couple who’d been living together for something like eight or ten years decided to get married but then problems started to form in their relationship. They came to see me and we talked about it and it became clear that they both came from broken families and I soon realised that was the only model they had for how to behave when married. I’m not saying that happens all the time but for them, something had clicked in from the past. Thankfully, they were able to get some professional help and worked through it, but it was as if they had put on a different record as soon as they got married. I think we are all wired like that to some extent without realising it and if it does happen, some people just give up.

You learn how wonderful and kind people are.

When I was researching people that I would like to interview, one of the things that caught my eye was that you used to keep pigs – why pigs? Well, they were a lot easier than trying to keep my Sunbeam Alpine going and my wife was getting a bit cross about my cars anyway. Are you into your vintage cars as well? Well, I had a 1966 Sunbeam Alpine because my uncle, who was an important male figure in my life, had one. I also had a 1968 MGB and I really enjoyed both of them – they were great conversation starters as well. When I lived in the Vicarage and I was tinkering with one of them, people would wander down and ask what I was doing. Afternoon Vic, how’s it going? What are you up to? And then they’d say, I’ve got a spanner for that, I’ll go and get it. You learn how wonderful and kind people are. But when I came here and the children were getting older, Sugina, my wife, was saying that you can’t keep picking the children up from school in a car with no seat belts in the back, so that was that really. I’d always wanted to keep livestock though, and with the jungle that was out in the orchard, a friend who has a small holding out on Cliffe, suggested I should get some pigs. Soon after that, we were joined by our Oxford Sandy and Blacks. They were absolutely lovely and I just loved going down and talking to them. We had always said that they would be reared to eat, because at that stage my children were starting to question where food came from. Sugina was never on board with the idea, she thought I was mad, but the children were ok with it. Before we got them, I asked what would happen if when it came to it, we didn’t want to eat them. My youngest said to me, that’s alright Dad, we’ll just have to become vegetarians. I thought to myself, that really wasn’t what I had in mind but anyway, we went with it and we did eat them in the end because eventually when I became Dean, we had to move to the Deanery and it wasn’t possible to keep them there, so the decision was made for us. Now that we’ve done so much work on this area, I don’t think we could have pigs again but I’d love to keep donkeys here now, they’re wonderful and very therapeutic. The vicar at my wife’s church when she was a young girl kept donkeys and I believe they made an appearance every Christmas. Well, exactly. We have a link with some donkey owners and they visit us on Palm Sunday. The donkeys walk with us in procession down the High Street and then continue right through the centre of the Cathedral and end up here in the Orchard afterwards, where the children have their own service and can enjoy a donkey ride. If I had my own donkeys though, I could use them all year round! I’ve got to convince the Cathedral gardener but they are lovely and they’re also good ‘petting’ animals, which is important if we are going to progress with the work we have started here on nurturing and promoting wellbeing – body, mind and soul.

As I understand it, the Dean also oversees the financial management of the Cathedral. Have things recovered since the disruption of Covid? It’s definitely better than it was because around 45% of our income comes from a few commercial and residential properties that we manage and, as a lot of people found, rental income disappeared for a long time. We are now beginning to get things back on track again but we always have to take it one year to the next, because we just don’t know how many visitors we will have. We’re now back to roughly the same numbers that we had before Covid, but people are now understandably economically struggling to donate as much as they used to. Because of the area that we are in, I feel very strongly that most of the things we do are free of charge. We hold activities that people can come in and experience without it costing them anything and therefore we have to look for other revenue streams. Can balancing the books get a bit scary at times – you hear about City’s going bankrupt, is that a potential threat for cathedrals? That was partly why a new Cathedrals Measure was passed through Parliament following Peterborough Cathedral effectively going bankrupt. People were asking who was responsible for that debt. It created a real concern about how cathedrals were being run from a financial perspective and what happens if one were to go bankrupt.

There are cathedrals that are struggling financially and have been dipping into historic endowments that are coming to an end and that’s why they’ve become a lot more entrepreneurial. At Rochester we don’t have large historic endowments, so we’re having to constantly look for long-term sustainability. If the current trend continues, what do you think will happen in a couple of generations time? Could cathedrals become similar to museums? Some may well do, whilst others will certainly need to embrace alternative ways of generating income in order to survive, but that’s where there is potential tension. It will be important to keep the dignity and maintain a cathedral’s original purpose whilst introducing other things and encouraging wellbeing. We use that word a lot now because everyone understands it, but the word salvation, which is a very religious word, means health and wellness. So, our salvation is about being healed, it’s about being made whole, and restoring right relationships. The Church’s message has always been about ‘putting things back where they belong’ – it’s called Redemption. Jesus came to restore all things and restore the image of God in us. I was interviewed on Radio 4 recently and they told me that some evangelical churches were questioning if cathedrals had lost confidence in the gospel because of the direction some were taking. I responded by saying that the gospel means good news and what is not good about hundreds of people of all ages, genders, ethnicities and classes being in Rochester Cathedral enjoying themselves and then respectfully participating in prayer – what’s not good news about that.